Point 1: Mormonism denied the priesthood to blacks for 140 years. If the Mormon Church is inspired by god, that means god was a bigot for 140 years. Do you not see the problem here? You’re saying the Mormon Church can do no wrong, yet I gave you a glaring example of it doing something wrong. Blacks being inferior was part of the doctrine of Mormonism (it technically still is, just read the Book of Mormon). How is that not evil?

Point 2: The Mormon Church just spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and encouraged its members to spend millions of dollars to pass Proposition 8 in California. That Proposition is preventing people who want to marry and receive the legal benefits of marriage from doing so. When given the opportunity to allow civil unions in Utah, the requisite bills were killed before leaving committee. If the Mormon Church wanted civil unions in Utah, there would be civil unions in Utah. The Mormon Church is prejudiced and discriminatory towards homosexuals. If you don’t believe me, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuwRytqoFng&feature=player_embedded
The Mormon Church has condoned torture of members to “cure” homosexuality. They don’t do that anymore, but they have never apologized and will not admit that they were wrong, even though they now admit that homosexuality cannot be cured (though they still think it is a sin).

As for specific stories of Mormonism ruining lives, where to start… Why not spend some time reading the following:
http://signingforsomething.org/blog/?p=2553
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2009/01/31/mormonism-is-for-the-%e2%80%9csaints%e2%80%9d-who-can-afford-it/
http://latterdaymainstreet.com/2007/06/19/the-beginning-of-the-end/

http://www.exmormon.org/stories.htm

I could give you specific examples, but I don’t want to reveal the names of the people whose marriages were destroyed because of Mormonism. I could tell you privately and they would probably confirm it, but let me just summarize the situation of the two men I know whose marriages ended this way. Both are people I work with now. They were both raised Mormon, served missions, and married in the temple. Over time they lost their belief in Mormonism. But they still attended services with their wives and even served in callings. However, both made the “mistake” of eventually telling their wives that they no longer believed. That was the beginning of the end. Rather than live with a non-believer who was willing to raise the kids Mormon and continue to behave as a Mormon, they told their bishops what the situation was. With their bishops’ guidance, they both gave their husbands ultimatums – regain a testimony or the marriage is over. How is this Mormon doctrine? It probably isn’t, technically, but it is common advice within Mormonism – don’t spend time around apostates. They followed that advice. Neither of the men I know could force himself to regain a testimony given what they knew about Mormonism and its past. As a result, their wives filed for divorce. Neither man wanted a divorce. Both were willing to do whatever they could to save their marriage. But, with guidance from their Mormon leaders, their marriages were destroyed because they didn’t believe. They weren’t sinning. They weren’t drinking. They weren’t watching porn. They simply didn’t believe.

I don’t doubt that you believe you’ve never seen Mormonism destroy anyone’s life. But, then again, you haven’t been looking for that information. Here’s one of the most famous examples:
http://www.gaymormon.com/casestudies/indvbyalpha/matis-stuart/newsweek.htm

It happens, Jeremy… Now you just have to admit it’s possible for a religion supposedly doing god’s will to destroy someone’s life. Maybe Mormon leaders don’t actually do god’s will? Maybe they are just men doing what they think is right? When you look for the evidence to support that understanding, it’s pretty apparent…

Let me paint this logically for you:

1) God’s will can only be good.
2) You are a follower of god when you do god’s will.
3) Followers of god can only do good.

Thus, you are not a follower of god when you don’t do god’s will. Anyone who does evil is not a follower of god.

What you have done is made it impossible for any representative of god to ever do anything evil. Now, if we ignore the fact that your logic is completely circular, which means it is worthless to begin with, we can still find examples to illustrate the problems with your logic. From pretty much the inception of Mormonism in 1830 until 1978, blacks were not allowed to hold the priesthood. Using your logic:

If the leaders of Mormonism are followers of god, then:

1) God’s will can only be good and God’s will is that blacks not have the priesthood.
2) The leaders of Mormonism are followers of god as they do god’s will.
3) It was a good thing to deny the priesthood to blacks.

However, Mormons claim that god changed his mind. (Great – a god that changes his mind. So much for perfection…) Let’s pretend that is even logically coherent. That leaves us with:

1) What is good to god can change.
2) Mormon leaders are god’s followers, regardless of what god says is good.
3) Since Mormon leaders are god’s followers, that must mean it was god’s will to discriminate against blacks for 140 years and that doing so was good.

Thus, even by your own tortured logic, god was a bigot for 140 years.

What’s more, because Mormon leaders can do no wrong, that means they can never do wrong. Thus, if Thomas Monson and the Quorum of the Twelve were caught tomorrow raping a child, you would have to say that it was god’s will because they are god’s followers, which means whatever they do reflects god’s will. Is that really what you want to say, Jeremy? That doesn’t seem like a great position to take.

Now, just because I’m feeling nice, Jeremy, I’m going to give you a hint: Maybe how you should respond to this is not to say that you can only be a representative of god when you do god’s will but rather to say, “Well, people are human. Sometimes they misinterpret god’s will. They end up doing whatever it is they interpret to be god’s will. This means people who represent god may do some bad things – like discriminate against blacks for 140 years – but it’s because they don’t have a clear understanding of god’s will.” This position is more defensible, logically, but still problematic. Why? Because it now implies that these followers of god don’t really know god’s will.

See, you’re stuck in a logic trap: You want to believe that Thomas Monson actually speaks with god, but that would imply that Thomas Monson should never do anything wrong because he speaks with god. But Thomas Monson does do wrong. Which means: (1) He only speaks with god sometimes, but we have no way of knowing when that is. (2) He does speak with god but misinterprets it sometimes. (3) He doesn’t actually speak with god and is just a guy trying to do the best he can.

I’m sure you can guess my position…

The point of the video was really just to dissect the accusation leveled at atheists and skeptics that they are not open-minded. I thought the video did a good job making that clear. Here’s the argument in a nutshell: Believers like to claim skeptics are closed-minded because skeptics do not accept the evidence put forth by believers (this does not have to be evidence for god; it can be evidence for homeopathy, crystal power, etc.). The argument of the video is that the skeptic is, in fact, open-minded because he/she is willing to be persuaded by good evidence. In contrast, the believer is unwilling to be persuaded regardless of evidence. This last point is part of the reason why I’m not sure this video works all that well regarding god as the atheist cannot disprove god. The atheist simply says, “I have no evidence against god and you have no evidence for god, so I suspend judgment.” But when it comes to pseudoscience, there is tons of evidence against homeopathy, crystal power, etc.). Ergo, the believer is actually closed-minded as they have a preconceived belief and they cherry-pick or convolute whatever they can to confirm their belief rather than follow the evidence. That, to me, was the point of the video.

As for finding “supernatural” offensive… Super = above or beyond; natural = nature. Your god is above or beyond nature, by definition, Jeremy. Nothing offensive intended. It’s your god; it’s your definition. Just because it is in the same realm as other things that are supernatural doesn’t mean we are trying to be offensive, just that the arguments against the existence of that supernatural entity have a similar basis. I can argue against the existence of Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, leprechauns, and god all on the basis that they are supernatural entities. That doesn’t mean I hate them, just that they have a shared quality.

As for being hypocritical… My point: Have you ever judged another religion based on the actions of the members? If not, I’ll be astonished. I judged the Branch Davidians based on the actions of the members (they shot and killed many of the people inside before lighting the fire that killed the rest). I absolutely do judge religions based on the actions of the people. Are you honestly going to tell me that you are a fan of the specific version of Islam that Osama bin Laden advocates following 9/11? Sure, you may not judge all of Islam based on bin Laden’s actions, but I’m guessing you’re not signing up to join him based on his actions. Ergo, you have judged his beliefs based on his actions. You then ask that I not judge Mormonism based on the actions of Mormons. That is hypocritical. (Caveat: If, somehow, you have not judged Osama bin Laden’s teachings based on his actions, then I guess this point is moot. But come on!)

I wouldn’t expect you to defend your reasoning if you did not think it was sound. However, I don’t feel like you’ve responded to about 90% of the points I’ve made in the above discussion:
-no response to god not healing amputees
-no response to the fact that leprechauns are just as compelling an explanation for the unexplainable as is your god
-no response for the fact that rare things happen because there are a lot of people and a lot of actions
-no response to me asking you to name one evil thing god has done
-no response to my point about people being terribly hurt by Mormonism

Finally, as far as attacking your beliefs… I don’t think I have. I simply posted a video that suggested that skeptics are open-minded, contrary to the claims of some believers who accuse them of not being open-minded. I fail to see how that is attacking your beliefs in any way.

Another point Ryan. How have I been hypocritical of members of other religions? How have I judged the people and not the religion itself. You throw that out there and I’m not sure how you connect me with this hypocrisy.

Anyway, I feel like my reasoning is sound, and Ryan and Brad obviously don’t. That’s fine. Brad, if you don’t want to talk about God and religion, that’s fine, but I don’t like my beliefs to be attacked, that’s all.

The irony in your claim that I was condescending is that you then admit that I was right. How is describing reality condescending or insulting?

I said nothing about whether or not missionaries discover the “true” reason while serving. Some may. I know others who went for the “true” reason and “lost” it while serving, becoming disillusioned with missionary work as a result of: poor behavior of other missionaries, the harsh and demeaning attitude of their mission president, or the failure to find anyone receptive to their message. Ergo, there is a lot of variation in motivations among Mormon missionaries.

As for the issue of Mormon society pressuring Mormons to go… I wasn’t actually saying anything about it directly. I do think it is a problem, but I haven’t said much about it in the past. The main reason I think it is a problem as regards missionaries is because of the pressure. I saw two of my cousins attempt to serve missions, only to go home early because they couldn’t handle it. One ended up suffering from major depression for quite some time as a result and admitted to me that he felt: (1) like a failure for not being able to handle being a missionary and (2) like our extended family – all very Mormon – thought he was a failure for not completing his mission. That doesn’t seem right. But, I actually am not going to be all that critical of Mormon culture on this point. Most subcultures have strong social norms. Deviating from them results in shame. And I don’t think all Mormons or even the Mormon Church wants individuals who cannot serve missions to feel shame. I think this is more a problem of individuals in the Mormon community who are uber-self-righteous, not the Mormon community itself. So, there you go, I just defended Mormonism.

I’m not sure where you keep getting this “forcing” idea from. I never said I or Mormon missionaries force beliefs on anyone. What I said is that I, as an atheist, do not try to get people to listen to me. Mormon missionaries do. They evangelize. I don’t. Whenever you force someone to do something against their will you are treading dangerous territory (within reason, of course; forcing someone not to commit murder against their will is probably more ethical than the alternative). So, please stop using that term. I never suggested it. There is, as far as I know, virtually no evidence of Mormon missionaries forcing conversions, ever. There is some of coerced baptisms in the 1980s (so called “baseball baptisms”), but I’m perfectly willing to chalk that up to deviant missionaries and undue pressure placed on missionaries by self-seeking mission presidents and not on the Mormon Church.

As for judging a religion based on the behavior of its members… Well, now you’ve raised a whole new can of worms. Let’s use a hypothetical situation: Let’s say I, RC, claim to be a prophet who can speak with god. I convince a number of people my claim is authentic and I begin to gather followers. I then convince my followers that it is god’s will that they give me all of their money so I can divide it up evenly based on need. I also convince them that I should marry all the women to ensure their eternal salvation. Jeremy, should you judge my religion based on my behavior? Or should you simply judge my religion based on the teachings? Will you join? Will you hand over your money and your wife?

Now, before you say that I just described Joseph Smith (which, of course, is true), let me also note that I was actually describing: Jeffrey Lundgren (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Lundgren) and David Koresh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh), two religious leaders who, I’m assuming, you do not believe to be authentic prophets. Why don’t you believe in Jeffrey Lundgren or David Koresh, but do believe in Joseph Smith? Do you find Jeffrey Lundgren and David Koresh’s beliefs objectionable, or their behavior, or both?

The point being, claiming that you can’t judge a religion based on the behavior of the members is problematic. If you can’t judge a religion on that, what can you judge it on? And, yes, we should judge religions as they are making important claims. The only other alternatives for judging a religion are: the beliefs of the religion and/or the structure. Well, if you want to go on beliefs, you should probably be a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as it more closely adheres to the original beliefs of Joseph Smith than does the modern LDS Church. Then again, you may judge them based on the behavior of Warren Jeffs. But you then turn around and say that no one should judge Mormonism based on the behavior of: (1) past leaders or (2) modern-day representatives.

Fine, I’ll refrain from judging Mormonism based on the behavior of its members if you’ll refrain from judging other religions based on the behavior of their members. Deal? (This means I’ll be waiting for you to join the FLDS…) But until all Mormons are willing to judge religions based on their beliefs and not the behavior of the members, I’ll simply call Mormons hypocrites and continue to judge religions based on the behavior of the members… and the beliefs.

Lastly, claiming that you saw people become happy as a result of accepting the gospel is another example of confirmation bias. Did you ever see Mormonism ruin someone’s life? I have. I have seen it break up four marriages of people I know. I saw it embitter one family entirely (a family I baptized in Costa Rica). I saw it tear one woman apart emotionally. I’ll refrain from saying it destroyed my cousin’s life (mentioned above), as that was just the members, not the religion itself (though drawing a distinction is always fuzzy). Why is it that you only remember the people who benefit from Mormonism but forget those who are destroyed by Mormonism? I met one girl whose parents disowned her when she was 14 years old because she didn’t want to attend church services anymore. She was kicked out of her house and forced to make it own her own at 14 because she disagreed with her Mormon parents about Mormonism. Sure, Jeremy, Mormonism may help some people. I’ll give you that. But it also hurts lots of people. You are confirming your pre-existing bias but not realizing how many people are hurt by your religion. Proposition 8 comes to mind here. There are literally hundreds of thousands of people who were hurt by Mormonism in November 2008. Why don’t you see that?

Simply because there are a lot of Mormon Missionaries serving for the wrong reasons does not mean that they don’t discover the true reason behind what they’re doing. There is obviously pressure put on young 19 year old Mormon men to serve a mission, and I felt this pressure stronger because I waited until I was 20 1/2 years old before I left for my mission (what a disgrace, eh?). I realized as I served, though, that the people who accepted the Gospel were much happier. As I realized this I truly wanted to share the Gospel with more people so they could feel this true hapiness. You’re condecending attitude to why I and other missionaries went on missionas is insulting. I will admit that many go for the wrong reasons, which probably isn’t right, but many of them discover the true reasons as they’re serving. Perhaps you are casting more blame on Mormon society pressuring young men to serve than the young men themselves; and if this is your intent, you’re probably right. No one should be forced to do anything; that’s one of the important tenents of Mormonism, and those who look down on young mormon men who don’t serve should understand that they are being judgemental. My point about missionaries losing the spirit is not a cop out. What I’m saying is something I’m sure you’ve heard many times before. Mormon missionaries are human and make mistakes just like everyone else. This should mean that the Mormon religion isn’t true. Does a proseletizing atheist who forces his beliefs on others mean atheism isn’t true (according to you)? Members of any religion (or lack thereof) should not be judged by the things their members do. And I never said that missionaries can never do wrong. They can and do all the time. Does this mean that Mormonism is untrue? . If so I’d like to hear the logic behind that.