Ryan and Debi Cragun’s Blog

We bought a house; we’re happy. Start the deceptive junk mail.

Mortgage insurance providers are pretty smooth. They must have sent the first mailing within about 2 days of me closing on the home. It was, in fact, the first piece of mail I got. Deceptively, it looked as though it was from my mortgage company. They smartly include the name of my mortgage provider on the envelope (or through the window) to make it seem as though it is coming from my mortgage provider. Here’s an example:

Once you open it up they continue the charade of making it seem like this might still be from my mortgage provider:

Of course it’s not from my mortgage provider and clearly this is lucrative enough for about 40 different companies from all over the US to send me the same damn mailing. If so, that must mean it’s absolutely not worth it! I’m just wondering how many more are going to come…

I’ve received a bunch of other crap, but this next one is the only other one that has really bothered me. They, too, use scare tactics to make it seem like I desperately need what they have to sell. Little do they know that I know that tap water quality is extremely highly monitored and regulated. In fact, with few exceptions, tap water is cleaner and safer than bottled water. Bastards:

A family member recently sent me an email encouraging me to try a new fuel additive that claims to boost fuel economy. Because I care about this relative and care about the truth, I spent a few minutes checking out the claims of this company to see if it is really worth my time. Here’s what I wrote back:

I took your claims seriously and did a little sleuthing to see what I could find out about this fuel additive - Ultimate ME2. Here’s what I found:

1. Ultimate ME2 is registered as a fuel additive with the EPA (see this website). However, all that means is that burning Ultimate ME2 does not release anything toxic in the air (at least, nothing more toxic than the gasoline it is replacing). That does not mean that the fuel additive actually improves fuel economy. (See here for the registration guidelines)
2. As is typical with our government, they don’t test every new product that comes to market to ensure that what it claims is true. They do test these additives to make sure they aren’t polluting the environment but the EPA does not actually test them to see if they improve fuel economy. That isn’t really the EPA’s job. They do test fuel efficiency in cars, but not fuel efficiency of additives (see this website).
3. The EPA says you have to rely on the independent testing a company does to verify their claims. Okay, I don’t think that is a very good approach given the propensity of companies to lie, but let’s check it out. I went to the website you mentioned to look into the claims of Ultimate ME2.
4. The website itself reeks of a multi-level marketing scam. The biography of the company founder reads like a rags-to-riches dime store novella, not to mention he has so many initials behind his name that I’m led to believe they really do stand for B*llShit (or BS). The claims they make about their additive are highly suspicious.
5. Add to that the fact that if a company really discovered a way to make fuel burn more efficiently every oil company in the world would be after their product (either to corner the market on it or to squelch it so they can keep up their profits). Given the amount of money, research, and time the big players invest in this area, do you really think a small organization like EYIwould have a leg up on the big guys? I doubt it.
6. Finally, if their product is so amazing, why sell it using a multi-level marketing scheme (MLM)? Why not turn to retail or wholesale distribution?
7. All of these things made me question the claims of the company. So I examined their “independent” testing data myself. I’m guessing they just made up the numbers to make this seem convincing, though I don’t know that for sure. Even if they did, they don’t know anything about statistics as the numbers don’t support their argument. Here’s the link to their “independent” test results. And here’s a link to the company they claim performed their tests (this is a really pathetic website - I wonder if they put it up themselves).
8. If you look at the bottom of the .pdf file they actually have a table showing the results of their three tests. I took those results and threw them into my statistical analysis software. You see, they seem to indicate an improvement in fuel economy between the two cars, with the one using Ultimate ME2 having better fuel economy than the one that didn’t. The problem is, these results could be due to random chance fluctuations in driving conditions, that particular batch of gasoline, how the driver maneuvered the car, etc. So, I ran a simple t-test on the results and, not surprisingly, the difference between the control and experimental cars is not significantly different (mean difference=1.168, p< .586). There is a difference, yes, but three cases are not sufficient to claim what they are claiming. They would need to repeat this test with these same results probably 50 to 100 more times to convince me that the fuel additive actually works (I don’t have the time to actually do the power calculations).
9. Additionally, I’m always a little skeptical about these claims because it doesn’t seem to me like they actually include the cost of the additive along with the extra amount of the additive in the fuel economy calculations. Let me explain. If you buy 10 gallons of gas at $2.85 and you get 35 miles/gallon (this is what my car gets), you are paying roughly $0.08 per mile.
10. Now, add 1 pint of fuel additive. Let’s say it costs $3.50. To accurately calculate the new cost per mile you need to add the $3.50 to the $28.50 to get your new cost: $32.00. You also need to add the 1 pint of additive to the gallons of gas you purchased: 10.25 gallons. Now do the math. Buying and adding the fuel additive translates into $0.09 per mile. You’re paying a penny more per mile, which adds up on a long trip (1000 miles = $10.00). When you did your calculations, did you take this into consideration?
11. Here’s where it gets really intriguing. In order to warrant using the additive, you would need to get a 13% improvement in fuel economy (that’s the difference between $0.08 and $0.09, 12.5% to be exact). In other words, if you use the additive, and it works, you are paying the exact same amount as if you did not use the additive. To actually save money, you’d need to improve fuel efficiency more than 13%.
12. Ironically, Ultimate ME2 claims an improvement in efficiency of 13% - which means you’re paying the exact same amount as if you didn’t use it given its cost. I don’t know how much Ultimate ME2 costs per pint, but I just checked on a similar product at auto zone and it is actually $5.99 per pint. In that instance, it would need to improve your fuel economy by close to 20% just to pay for itself. You would need to do better than that to experience any savings.

So, what am I saying? There is no reason to believe any of the claims of EYI, the company that makes Ultimate ME2. They don’t explain how their product works and the little data they do provide (which is of questionable origin) doesn’t actually support their claims. Your better off buying the least expensive gas you can find and making sure you: (1) check your tire pressure, (2) have clean air filters, (3) change your oil regularly, (4) don’t drive fast, (5) and get as much weight out of your vehicle as possible. Fuel additives are a scam, pure and simple. Sorry, but they are.

Update 2008-07-12: Here’s a recent article from the St. Petersburg Times giving the same advice I have given here.

(Note: I wrote this post originally as a response to a pamphlet I was handed while visiting the spa on a cruise ship [I was there on a tour of the ship, not because I was paying for a service.]. I was so appalled by the claims that I decided I had to write up my thoughts about it. I did, and this post drew dozens of comments, mostly from people who absolutely insist that Ionithermie really works. As I still don’t see much good information out on the internet these days about Ionithermie, I’m leaving this post up, but as a page, not as a story. Commenting is closed. Enjoy…)

Original Title: cruise comments 2 - the spa, January 28, 2005:

The first day on the ship we went on a tour of the ship with the rest of Debi’s family that included a quick trip into the spa. They introduced us there to the numerous treatments they provided, including massages, seaweed wraps, rubs with rocks, and all sorts of other silly stuff. I’m sure some of these treatments feel good, but when they started talking about ‘toxins’ and how terrible they are for you body, I couldn’t help but think the whole think was a scam. Don’t get me wrong, ‘toxins’ are, technically, bad for your body (see this definition of toxins on wikipedia), but not the way they were using the word.

As they continued explaining their ‘treatments’, they must have said the word ‘toxins’ a hundred times. As they said it more and more, it became apparent that they were using ‘toxins’ as a catch-all ‘technical’ word that was supposed to scare people into getting their ‘treatments’. This point was driven home when I overheard a seminar on spa treatments in the exercise room where they let slip that adrenaline is a toxin. I can’t believe how ridiculous the whole concept is, but many of the old women on the cruise ship seemed to eat this stuff up as though it was coming straight from Albert Einstein’s mouth!

Anyway, Debi grabbed a pamphlet from the seminar on Ionithermie treatment that I couldn’t help but scan and post up here. What a bunch of bullpucky!!!!

I’m not an expert on biology or chemistry, but I’m fairly certain this treatment is absolutely worthless. I’ve included some links and comments intermixed with the pamphlets contents. But the big surprise comes at the end :)

From the pamphlet:

What is Cellulite?
There is a visible difference between “cellulite” fat and the fat on the rest of your body. Cellulite is the term we use for the lumpy fat normally found upon the thighs, buttocks and abdomen of both women and men. It gives the skin an orange peel, dullish look and can be cold to the touch. Areas with cellulite are generally more sensitive and more prone to bruising than those areas on the body without cellulite. Ionithermie can assist in reducing the appearance of cellulite by stimulating your internal systems to release toxins via the lymphatic drainage system.

Here’s a link to ‘cellulite’ on Wikipedia. Do note that it specifically states that the cosmetics industry claims to have a bunch of remedies, all of which are ineffective.

Cellulite and Genetics
Some women and men are more prone to cellulite than others and much of this is to do with genetics. If your parents were overweight in their youth or middle years and have cellulite, then you are prone to being overweight too. It is the same with cellulite and more often than not, it is genetically inherited. To reduce the appearance of cellulite you need to assist your body’s internal cleansing systems to eliminate toxins.

Based on what the article on cellulite says, there is probably some truth to this.

Cellulite and Age
As we get older our internal cleansing system naturally slows down and our body is not as efficient in eliminating toxins. In the middle years of life, most women and some men will experience some cellulite, the appearance of which can be lessened with diet, exercise and including Ionithermie in your lifestyle plan.

I don’t see a reference about the increasing inefficiency of the lymphatic system (which the pamphlet will bring up shortly) with age. What’s more, there are no references to the effectiveness of Ionithermie.

Cellulite and Health stimulates
your internal systems helping eliminate toxins in the body and
enhancing the circulation and metabolism. Bearing this in mind,
detoxifying with Ionithermie products and treatments can only benefit
your well-being.

I don’t see a reference about the increasing inefficiency of the lymphatic system (which the pamphlet will bring up shortly) with age. What’s more, there are no references to the effectiveness of Ionithermie.

Cellulite and Health
While cellulite is purely a cosmetic concern, Ionithermie stimulates your internal systems helping eliminate toxins in the body and enhancing the circulation and metabolism. Bearing this in mind, detoxifying with Ionithermie products and treatments can only benefit your well-being.

Notice the reference to ‘toxins’. Once again, there is no evidence here; no peer-reviewed references.

Ionithermie Cellulite Reduction
An Ionithermie Algae-Detox program is the most effective non-invasive way to reduce the appearance of cellulite, tone the body and give the skin appearance. Results can be noticed after just one session, although courses of three or six treatments may be recommended. Book in for a free consultation.

I love the last part here - three or six treatments. This is all about selling bogus treatment.

Enhance your Well-Being
Ionithermie and Detoxification
Detoxification is the cleansing or purifying of the body’s internal systems. Your kidneys and liver work 24 hours a day to cleanse away the waste and therefore any assistance you can give it is a gift to your health. Ionithermie can help encourage the healthy functioning of the body by diminishing the work load on the internal cleansing organs.

And how does it go about doing this?

Ionithermie and Arthritis
The severe pain of arthritis can be soothed with an ionithermie treatment. Because we use galvanic and faradic stimuli, waves of warm stimuli penetrate into the joints helping to improve the circulation. Because Arthritis affects the joints, carrying extra fluid or weight makes the condition even more painful. Ionithermie releases trapped fluids from the body, helps to restore a healthy metabolism and therefore also encourages weight loss.

Galvanic and Faradic stimuli? Here’s a link on Galvanic. Here’s a link on Faradic. They are basically just types of electric currents. Using big words doesn’t impress people who check the information they provide. In short, they are going to shock you and claim that this somehow is going to improve the circulation of your lymphatic system. Read up on the lymphatic system here and you’ll realize electric shocks will do absolutely nothing!!!

Finally, will electric shocks alleviate arthritis? Once again, there is absolutely no evidence for this claim. The authors of this pamphlet are no doubt hoping gullible older people will believe them, even though this is a fallacious, untrue claim.

Ionithermie and Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS)
Dr. Elisabeth Dancey, author of “The Cellulite Solution,” states that studies in colon disorders have been closely linked with cellulite. Cellulite on the tummy can be a result of a digestive disorder. Ionithermie may be able to assist IBS by releasing toxins in the tummy and therefore allowing for easier digestion of food.

*We would like to thank Dr. Elisabeth Dancey for her permission to use this information. Dr. Dancey’s book “The Cellulite Solution” is available atwww.amazon.com.

Their first reference is to a book written by an herbalist. Once again, sounds like a bunch of bogus.
Cellulite Reduction at Home

Preparation
Every morning before your shower, use the body brush to eliminate dead skin cells and restore normal circulation. This invigorates the lymphatic system which helps to eliminate toxins from the body.

How does removing dead skin cells restore normal circulation? This is such a bunch of bullcrap!

Tonic Silhouette
Tonic Silhouette prepares the skin to absorb the active ingredients of the firming and cellulite emulsifying creams. It contains potassium salts, vitamins A, E, H and F, Linden Plant extract and Allantoin. Cleansing with this astringent stimulates the circulation with a calming and healing action. Use once daily.

Not sure what the rest of this crap is supposed to do or be, but I found out what Allantoin is: a by product of urine! Do you feel refreshed knowing they are putting piss on you? What hooey!

A + B Ampoules
A + B ampoules primary function is to help emulsify cellulite. Active ingredients include Red Algae, to help eliminate toxins, Ivy to enhance the circulation, Guarana to improve the metabolism and Menthol Extract to cool and soothe the skin. To apply, wrap a tissue over the ampoule, carefully snap off the top and pour a little in your hand. Massage the entire contents into the area being treated. For best results use after the Tonic Silhouette.

Ampoules are glass bleakers - why not just call them that? Since when do red algae (not a propour noun) and Ivy serve these functions? Guarana is a stimulant due to its high caffeine content.

Metasysteme
Contains Algae, Amino Acids, and Mucopolysaccharides which accelerate the detoxifying effect of the A + B ampoules. It also contains sea base minerals to further detoxify and hyaloronic acid to strengthen and repair the connective tissues. Use after the A + B Ampoules.

More bogus…

What is Ionithermie Algae-Detox?
Ionithermie Algae-Detox treatments and products help reduce the appearance of cellulite, improve the texture of the skin and firm the body. Created by a French Bio-Chemist in the 1980’s, Ionithermie has continued to be the most effective non-invasive way of reducing the appearance of cellulite and toning the skin. Recently, Ionithermie treatments and products have become available in the United States. Visible results are recorded after just one session, although a course of three or six treatments may be recommended, depending upon your needs. Following your prescribed program, a monthly or six weekly booster treatment may be recommended.

How does Ionithermie work?
The treatment itself works using marine based products to aid detoxification, combined with galvanic and faradic stimuli. Galvanic stimuli assists the ability of the active ingredients to be absorbed into the effected areas. Faradic stimuli exercises the muscles for the duration of the treatment. It is a relaxing treatment and an effective, non-invasive way to firm, tone and lose inches. Most clients report an average loss of three inches after the first session.

The Procedure
Step 1:
Your therapist will measure you in approximately five different areas. Every area measured is marked with crayon so we can compare the measurements before and after your treatment. Your before measurements are written on your personal progress card.
Products rich in Algae, Kelp and Ivy are applied to the skin on the areas being treated.

Step 2:
A warm natural clay infused with Algae is applied to the area being treated and electrodes are placed in specific areas on the body. Galvanic and Faradic stimuli are activated, propelling the active ingredients into the skin and toning the muscles. The duration of the treatment is approximately one hour.

Step 3:
The clay and electrodes are removed. A cooling body lotion is applied to the treated area and then your therapist will re-measure your body. Results are recorded and compared to the pre-treatment measurement.

Having read through this, I’m thoroughly convinced it is a bunch of bullcrap. But if the language and deception isn’t enough to convince you that this is all crap, check out this picture they use to sell the treatment:

This is the only part of the pamphlet I like - but it doesn’t convince me of the effectiveness of Ionithermie. Don’t waste your money!

21 Responses to “cruise comments 2 - the spa”

1. Krissy Says:
February 18th, 2005 at 10:57 am
I had to leave a comment here for you. On a cruise, I did fall for B.S. and had one treatment. And it does work, personally I don’t think the mask does anything for the “cellulite”-but the electric pulsations that they attach to the stomach area, do “shock” the nerves which in turn must tighten the muscles. Many physical therapists use this same technology in treatments. I lost inches-in one session-but I think it was the electric pulsations that are the equivilant of doing 1000 sit ups. It firms things up and tightens you up for a few days. After a few days on a cruise, when lets face it all you do is eat! This is a welcome treatment.

Also when they say you can loose inches in one session-you do, however, they measure you at various points. The waist, hips, etc:and if you loose an inch from your waist (which I did) and an inch from your hips-they add those numbers together. I doubt anyone would loose 3 inches from their waist alone or something to that effect.

2. Ryan Cragun Says:
February 18th, 2005 at 4:04 pm
Hi Krissy,
Thanks for the thought. I’ve heard from one other person as well about how the ‘electricity’ treatment does seem to drop inches off different parts of your body. You may be right in that it works the muscles, but I would actually be a little concerned if just exercising muscles dropped an inch off my waist in an hour. In fact, I’d be more than a little concerned as it takes a long time to drop that much weight or lose that much tissue mass.

My guess is that if you did the measuring yourself, you’d find that you didn’t actually lose any inches. The measuring, of course, is done by the spa attendant who, more than likely, is ‘exaggerating’ your measurements the first time then pulling a bit tight the second time. This is no different than the sleight-of-hand used by magicians and, for some people I’m sure, just as convincing.

Do keep in mind, however, that this is just my guess as to what is happening. Without good, objective tests under controlled conditions (i.e. in a laboratory with multiple people taking the measurements) I cannot be certain this is what is happening, but that would be my guess.

One more way of thinking about this may help: Why do you suppose they don’t weigh you instead of measuring you? If they weighed you, you would be able to actually see what the scale says. You would see the weight the first time and the second time and know that you hadn’t lost any weight.

Anyway, thank you for the post. I really don’t mean to give the impression that people who buy into these spa treatments are gullible or anything - I know a number of particularly non-gullible people who do them too. They no doubt feel good, and that is a positive in itself. I just want people to realize that all of the claims they make about the remarkable things these treatments are supposed to do aren’t true.

3. Ryan Cragun Says:
February 25th, 2005 at 8:38 am
Krissy sent me these final thoughts:

Hi Ryan,

thanks for the follow up. It is odd and I thought the same thing-I was very skeptical. However, after 4 days of eating on that cruise-it was a despirate attempt to feel human again and not like jaba the hut!

The algae mask-it think just makes your skin feel nice. I did the pre and post measuring myself. I did loose an inch-and more importantly:my clothes felt perfect again!

I really don’t think that you are not loosing weight, you are not loosing any mass per se-you are only tightening up what you have. The effects only lasted a few days-but after all that eating, it was nice to able to put on that evening dress and feel comfortable.

Actually, I came across your post because I was looking for a spa to have it done again. I have a friend’s wedding coming up and as the Maid of Honor-I wanted a little “help” with the dress. It certainly isn’t something I would do all the time-but a quick toning that will last a few days-can’t really see the bad in it.

Its always interesting to see what someone else has to say-and generally speaking-I would have to agree with you:but not this time :)

4. Deisree Says:
March 30th, 2005 at 8:53 pm
I also had this done on a cruz, and I am always skeptical about weightloss without hard work, but this is not weightloss. This is a cellulite treatment. I have a bunch of cellulite on my legs and tummy, after my one treatment, it was GONE!!! It came back after about a month, slowly of course, but there is no dought it definetly took away the cellulite for a while. So my experiance is that while the effects are not permanent, it does work. How you can say it is a scam without ever having tried it sounds judgemental and ignorant to me. Of course thats my opion. Desiree’

5. Ryan Cragun Says:
March 31st, 2005 at 8:03 am
Desiree,
I just want to point out a couple of things: You say the cellulite was ‘GONE’, but it came back. If it were really ‘GONE’, it would not have come back. What’s the point of temporarily ‘removing’ (better said, temporarily hiding) the cellulite?

Also, the point of my post was to call into question the sketchy claims of spas and point out they do not reveal how they actually achieve any results (including temporarily hiding your cellulite). If a medical doctor (which spa therapists are not) told you he was going to ‘magically’ shrink a cancerous tumor you have using seawood and olive oil, would you just believe him or would you want to know how the process is supposed to work?

Maybe you would believe. I wouldn’t. I’d ask for peer-reviewed research illustrating that his ‘magical’ treatment works before I’d let him touch me.

In short, spa treatments may feel good (I’m not arguing that), and they may seem to give results (though I do think any ‘results’ are deceptive), but they also make impossible claims and do not back them up with scientific research.

Go ahead and go to the spa; I’m not saying you can’t or shouldn’t. I just think people should be aware of the false claims spas make.

6. Desiree Says:
June 12th, 2005 at 12:56 pm
We are talking about cellulite, not cancer! If I had cancer, I certanly would not go for a spa teatment to cure it. I how ever can give you more insite as to why it works and why my cellulite came back. When I said that the cellulite came back, what I should have said is that I gained 10 pounds on the cruise and I gained another 8 after the cruise in the two months following. Your body always makes new fat when you gain weight, and as a result I got new cellulite. when I first wrote to you, I came across your site while I was trying to find out where I could have this done again. I was realy mad because you seemed so narow minded about something you never even tried. Now I see how you would be sceptical about something and want more answers, so here are the reasons the treatment does work. There is galvanis and feradic electricity that pulse through your body, with positive and negative electrodes that deliver the pulse, similar to a “tens unit” used by doctors and chiropractors. they simulate and work your muscels to strenghten and tighten them for 30 minutes, as you know when you work muscels, you burn fat. This is a fact. The process makes you sweat, pulling out toxins traped in your muscels and the fat you are burning. This is also a fact. The clay and alge helps conduct the electrity and like any type of facial mask helps take impuritys from your skin, leaving a hydrated and smooth fealing. this isn’t rocket science, it is very easy to understand. If you were to have had a treatment and experenced the working of your muscels you would probably understand a little better. Since reading and replying to you, I have invested in buying an Ionithermie machine. I opend with one customer the first day of buisness, three the second day, and without any advertising except word of mouth, I have been booked every day since. SO even if You dont think it could possibly work, I have 45 very happy clients who would beg to differ. I offer a no money unless you are completely satisified policy, and I havent had one dissatisfied customer. I think that speeks for its self. Desiree P.S. thanks for the inspiration.

7. ryan Says:
June 14th, 2005 at 10:22 am
Hi Desiree,

Thanks for the feedback.

Just a couple of quick points:

First, the galvanic and feradic electricities aren’t anything special. I addressed this in the article above. Second, clay and algae aren’t going to help conduct electricity. Their conductive properties aren’t any better than those of the human body (and, in fact, clay’s properties are worse). Finally, without specifying the ‘toxins’ that are removed from the body, I’m forced to return to my claim of bullcrap on this. Adrenaline is not a toxin. Uric acid is a toxin. You can’t just say ‘toxins’ are being removed from the body and expect me to believe you.

I appreciate you trying to clarify the process, but I need better definitions and falsifiable claims (X does Y). As you can see, when you do actually give falsifiable claims (like clay conducting electricity), they are generally refutable.

I wish I could say that I am happy you are making money with your machine. But given my hesitations about the claims you and other ionithermie advocates make, I can’t help but think you are hoodwinking your clients. Don’t get me wrong: maybe your machine does seem to shrink fat cells. But it obviously isn’t a long term solution to obesity or your clients wouldn’t have to come back. And, without clear explanations for why and which ‘toxins’ are bad and how your service removes them, I remain skeptical.

Best,
Ryan

8. Desiree Says:
June 25th, 2005 at 10:18 am
Well actualy, your are wrong about clay not conducting electricity, just another example of your ignorance. I dont know what if any backround you might have in chemistry or biology, but it appears you have none. feradic electricity is what is used in a “tens” unit to strengthen muscels and galvanic electricity is used in conjunction to promote circulation throught the body. Both are used widly in the medical profession on a daily basis, so saying they aren’t anything special seams to be dismissing the medical tecnology used every where. If you are not aware of what toxins are released through fat burning and sweat, you obviously never took health in highschool. Who said adrenaline was a toxin? Customers dont have to continue comming back to maintain their results, the come back to get even more results. customers are measured each time they come in, before and after treatment. The measurments on almost every customer are continualy smaller every time. Once again, you can’t say something doesn’t work if you have never tryed it and dont have the knowledge to dispute it. Clearly you are just a a man with little backround in what you are disputing and with nothing better to do. By the way, I have treated two medical doctors and I now offer the treatments in their office, with their approval and backing. both have a great reputation and a PHD, which you obviously do not.

9. ryan Says:
June 25th, 2005 at 10:50 am
Desiree: We aren’t getting anywhere with this. Look, I’m happy to accept your arguments providing you actually explain your claims to me using scientific terminology. Preferrably you would actually give me references to peer-reviewed articles in academic publications. Your most recent post doesn’t add anything to the discussion; it just insults my intelligence.

Some specific points. I didn’t say ‘clay doesn’t conduct electricity’. I said, “Clay does not conduct electricity as well as the human body.” It has been used as a housing for ancient batteries because of its electrical conduction properties (when dry, it is highly resistant to the conduction of electricity). Now, a wet clay will certainly be more conductive than a dry clay, but either way, clay isn’t particularly conductive and certainly no more so than the human body. Once again, if you are going to disagree with me, that’s fine. But I’m not changing my position without evidence on your part. Calling me names and insinuating that I’m an idiot won’t get you anywhere.

On Faradic (see your spelling; you get it wrong every time) and Galvanic electricity: You really should check your information. Galvanism is not a ‘type’ of electricity but rather the contraction of a muscle resulting from an electronic current. In that sense, galvanic electricity is normal electricity applied to muscles. There is nothing special about ‘galvanic electricity’ - its just electricity applied to muscles. A farad is a measurement of capacitance of a medium. Again, it is not some special form of electricity. It is a measurement of electricity. Michael Faraday developed a unique form of intermittent alternating current that is called ‘faradic’, but the properties of this current are nothing special. In short, what you are doing by touting your ‘galvanic’ and ‘faradic’ treatments is tapping into people’s ignorance. That is shameful and appalling!

As for toxins:. I’m asking a simple favor: Don’t just say ‘toxins’, tell me what, exactly, this treatment helps. Does it facilitate the removal of uric acid? Lactic acid? What? Toxins is a catch all phrase that sounds scary. And, in my opinion, that is precisely the point. Unless you specify which toxins are being removed, you can get away with your fear-mongering. I, for one, am calling this what it is - bullshit!

I don’t know anything about the ‘measurements’. I’ll admit as much because I’ve never had one of these treatments and I know nothing about how they actually take the measurements. I could claim ‘guilt by association’, but I won’t.

Finally, medical doctors have M.D.s not PhDs (though some also get PhDs). Just because an M.D. likes something doesn’t mean they are an expert in it. Some M.D.’s still smoke; does that mean they ‘know smoking is good for you’? You can’t just make appeals to some misbegotten authority and think I’m going to cowardly bow down. Give me references; show me the data!

Finally, I am currently working on a PhD in sociology, a completely unrelated field, and don’t claim any particular expertise on the benefits of Ionithermie treatments. However, with my ‘high school’ education (which you desperately want to claim means something), I am knowledgeable enough to recognize that your claims are superficial and general and warrant further investigation. Unless you can provide me with specific references to scientific research illustrating that your claims have merit, then I will continue to think what I do about Ionithermie - it’s bunk!

10. ryan Says:
June 25th, 2005 at 1:13 pm
Let me see if I can simplify things, Desiree. Answer the following questions using technical terms and references to peer-reviewed journals (like the New England Journal of Medicine):

1) Which toxins are removed from the body using Ionithermie (or whatever treatment it is you do) and how?
2) Define ‘faradic’ and ‘galvanic’ and explain exactly what they do in the treatment you perform.
3) Give me exact measurements of the conductivity of clay, algae, and the human body (preferrably for clay both when wet and when dry).
4) Explain in detail how you take measurements of your customers’ before and after their treatments.

If you can provide satisfactory answers to these questions, I’ll back down, admit that I am wrong, and shave my head bald.

11. ryan Says:
August 15th, 2005 at 8:35 am
While this doesn’t exactly address the ionithermie question, I found this article in the New York Times that does address the issue of cellulite and found it relevant enough to post from:

Article: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/opinion/15seigel.html

Excerpts:

If only Dove would also come clean about its firming lotions. The truth is that anticellulite creams don’t work.

That’s why Dove, which is owned by Unilever, makes the campaign about images, not facts. Perhaps that explains why the multinational company’s elaborate marketing includes a 48-page report on women’s attitudes about beauty, but not one sentence giving information about how its firming ointments were “tested on real curves,” reducing flesh dimpling in just two weeks.

Despite my repeated requests, Dove declined to release testing data - not surprising considering the pseudo-scientific babble driving this more than $40 million market, according to figures from research firms NPD Group and Information Resources.

Of course, snake oil isn’t all bad. The Dove lotions largely contain glycerin, an old-fashioned moisturizer that your grandmother might have used. And studies show that women see improvement from fake creams with no active ingredients - a visual placebo. Considering today’s pressure to be beautiful, women may need that.

But according to 27 years of medical literature recently reviewed in the Journal of Cosmetic and Laser Therapy, scientific proof that creams make a real, lasting difference does not exist. “There is no evidence to show that any topical medications improve cellulite,” says Dr. Mathew Avram, the study’s author and a Harvard Medical School faculty member.

Yet marketers and even some doctors promote the idea that lumpy flesh is a shameful but treatable condition caused by aging and obesity. That is, if you call puberty “aging,” because that’s when skin dimpling first appears, likely connected to the release of female hormones. (For that reason, oral contraceptives may worsen skin puckering, and males who lose testosterone after prostate surgery may develop it.)

Cellulite is a concocted idea imported from France. Hardly a disease or condition, it is how fat is arranged inside the female body, especially on thighs, hips and rear. And it affects some 90 percent of adult women. To change it, says Dr. Avram, you’d have to rejigger underlying body architecture, which is why exercising and losing weight helps some. But only some. “What you have here is normal female physiology,” he says. “Skinny women have it too.”

While laws in the United States allow companies to hedge product claims with phrases like “appearance of” or “look of,” that doesn’t fly in Britain. This spring, the British advertising industry’s self-financed watchdog ruled that Estée Lauder’s advertising for Body Performance Anti-Cellulite Visible Contouring Serum misled consumers. The beauty company’s research, the agency found, failed to prove that its “thermogenic complex” actually “melts away the fatty look of cellulite,” reducing “the appearance of cellulite.”

Why didn’t the British accept the “appearance of” trick in a ruling affecting the whole industry? “We believe,” says Matthew Wilson, of the British Advertising Standards Authority “the consumer might be confused.”

Oh.

Though Estée Lauder executives insist their research is valid, the company pulled the advertisement, sparking bad publicity and debate in Britain over truth in advertising. Yet the scandal received little or no coverage in the United States, though Estée Lauder has run nearly identical advertisements here (in this paper, among others), sells the cream here and continues to make even stronger claims about the product’s virtues on its Web site.

Instead, this summer the American media ran dozens of articles and broadcasts debating the “look of” and “appearance of” the images in Dove’s campaign. Journalists, at least, should go beyond “appearances of,” even if the embattled, overburdened Food and Drug Administration and the Federal Trade Commission can investigate only the most egregious, dangerous frauds.

On the bright side, at least Dove’s firming lotions are cheap, averaging about $8 a bottle compared with $50 a bottle for Estée Lauder’s cream. It’s nice when snake oil is reasonably priced. But if Dove truly wants to “help women feel that beauty is within their reach,” as its campaign claims, the company should stick to soap, moisturizer and the truth: Any woman worried about dimpled flesh while vamping on a giant billboard in white bra and panties would benefit far more from a little chiffon wrap than bogus lotions.

12. Linda Says:
September 28th, 2005 at 12:14 pm
Ryan, WOW, didn’t take the time to read all of the post, but gather you are not a beliver in the Ionithermie treatments or products. I like Desiree was looking online to find where in the US the treatments are available (for friends) when I came across these post.

I had my 1st treatments on a cruise in 1995, again on a crusie in 2000 and then again on a cruise this year, 2005. I obviously have seen results or would not continue to invest in these treatments. I see immediate results in inch loss, firmness of skin, and reduction of cellulite. BUT one round of treatment will not give permanent results, therefore I opt for 3 treatments and follow up with home care consisting of the use of external products (36 days) and internal products (6 mos of Elemis - algae type products).

The total cost this go round for everything was $1,150. This combination of treatments and home care does provide permanent resuslts. You may ask if permanent, then why repeat every 5 years. Well, although I don’t have a weight problem, I do over a period of 5 years load my body up with toxins from things such as caffine, medications, and many other everyday things. The whole point of this program is to flush your body of the toxins that have built up through out your body. These toxins prevent your body from functioning at its optimum resulting in many problems that are dismissed as just getting older. I was 31 years old when I did my first round of the program and am 46 now. The benefits I feel and see at this age are much greater than what I experienced 15 years ago. Not only do I see and feel results, but family, friends, and most importantly my husband see the results. So much so that my husband decided this year he would also go through what we call our “DETOX”.

It really doesn’t matter to me that you think this is a bunch of BS. I just thought I’d let you and others know that IONITERMIE does give significant results if you do it right. The toxins don’t build up in your body in one day and you can’t get rid of them in one treatment. Because over time you reload you body up with toxins, you will have to DETOX again about every 3 to 5 years. If it weren’t for continuing to load up on toxins from everyday things, you could technically say the results would be permanent.

FYI, in addition to the weight loss, inch loss, loss of cellulite, and increased enery levels, we are primarily doing it for our imporved health. We are planning to be able to improve my husbands cholestoral level so that he will be able ot get off of his medication. We know someone how was able to do this as a result of this program.

GOOD LUCK to all. To anyone interested in this program, try it for yourself. If it doesn’t work for you, you’ve lost a little money, but at least you know for yourself whether or not it works for you. Don’t let someone who has never tried it for himself convince you it’s a bunch of BS. It works! I and thousands other over that last 20 years and all through out Europe are poof. It is just getting to the US and until it becomes more well known, people are going to be skeptical and that’s OK. Probably most cellulite treatments in the US don’t work.

Anyway, GOOD LUCK to all.

13. ryan Says:
October 4th, 2005 at 9:51 am
Hi Linda. I appreciate your comments but I believe my criticisms remain valid. Consider for a second what you are saying: You believe you have to detox every few years. But what you are detoxing from is normal, everyday consumables. Until someone can show me peer-reviewed research in a professional publication illustrating that sugar, adrenaline, and other naturally occurring substances are actually toxins (look up what that word means, please!), I am going to continue in my belief that Ionithermie is a fraud. You don’t need to “Detox” from what you normally eat. They are feeding you a line of BS and you have, unfortunately, bought into it at great expense to yourself and your husband.

Don’t get me wrong - the treatment may feel good and it may seem as though they have firmed up your skin (sucking moisture out will do that), but it is obviously not permanent and IS designed to ensure that you will be coming back (every few years, at the very least).

Sure, people can try this crap, but I’d suggest not wasting your money. If you want to believe that it works despite the fact there is no evidence to indicate as much and you have to keep shelling out thousands of dollars, that’s your prerogative. I just think it is a serious waste of time and money. Go get a massage if you want to feel better - masseuses don’t claim to work miracles and don’t charge a thousand dollars at a pop!

14. Linda Says:
October 7th, 2005 at 1:33 pm
Ryan, I only have a few comment in response and will not waste my time with you anymore.

The toxins that are built up in your body over time are not the natural consumables such as sugar but rather the chemicals put into food and drinks such as preservatives and sweetner substitutes to name a few. We also absorb toxins into our body thru chemicals in everyday things such as lotions and toothpaste. Some of these chemicals/toxins can be avoided (i.e. aspertaime in diet drinks) by simply making alternative choices. But other chemicals in everday things such as toothpaste, lotions, and some medications are not practical to aviod. Other toxins such as the cortisol hormone your body produces in response to stress are impossible to avoid. Therefore as I said before it is necessary to go through a detoxification program every 4 or 5 years for your body to be able to function at its optimum. When your bodily organs are not polluted with toxic build up they are able to function as designed and elimimate a lot of ailments that are often assumed to be symptoms of getting older. Your risk of diabetes, high cholesteral , and other medical problems is also reduced as a result of your body functioning at its best.

I’m not sure why you insist that I only think the IONITHERMIE treatment has firmed up my skin and gotten rid of my cellulite. IT HAS. And I can say for the third time in 15 years that the results last for years, not days or months. If I had better discipline in my choice of what I eat and drink and excerised like I should, I probably would’nt have to go through the treatments every 5 years for the new cellulite I have acquired. But I would do it anyway just for the health benefit of detoxifying my internal systems.

Again, I don’t know what more evidence you think I need as proof that IONITHERMIE works. I am my own proof and that’s good enough for me. As far as you needing evidence in professional publications regardins toxins and its effects on the body, I don’t know where you’re looking but you’re not looking hard enough because it’s there. Don’t ask me to give you specific publications because I’m not going to spend that much time trying to educate you on the subject. But I will say there was a medical doctor on the Caribbean Princess attending the same seminar with me and he was also going through the Detox program. So it’s not just us poor uneducated suckers as you seem to believe that are spending money on what you believe only makes us think we feel better. But it’s actually educated people that are investing money in our health and seeing results. And my health is worth every penny I spent. The fact that at age 46 my rear and legs are still worth looking at is only an added bonus.

I would venture to guess that you are not yet approaching 50 and take your health for granted. I would suggest that you consider not being so closed minded to something that could make a difference in how you enjoy the later years in your life. Good health is a big part of the gold in your golden years. I’d be a little more open minded to starting the gold accumulation process now.

Good luck! If I win the lottery, I’ll pay for your detox program (both internal and external) so you can see the benefits for yourself (although if you’re still in your 20’s your may not feel or see result yet -depending on your current condition). There are many spas in the US that provide IONITHERMIE, maybe one is near you.

P.S. It’s ironic that the name of the spa director that gave the detox seminar and has a degree in Human Physiology was also named Ryan.Wish he could provide you directly with the details you seem to be missing.

15. Desiree Says:
October 9th, 2005 at 4:56 pm
Linda, Thank you for your comments!!! The last time I looked at this page and read what ryan had written, I thought it would be my last. It amazes me that someone can keep being so negative about something they have never tryed, then when people tell him about their experence he dismisses them and implies they dont know what they are talking about. lucky for me he sounds so much like a moron, because I have had clients read his blog and the comments left by others, and they still opt to get the ionithermie done. linda, if you are ever in Idaho, look me up (i am the only ionithermie tec in idaho) and I would be glad to give both you and your husband a treatment at cost.

Ryan, get a life! Desiree’

16. ryan Says:
October 9th, 2005 at 10:26 pm
Linda & Desiree,

You two crack me up. At what point have I ever said that the process is not pleasurable or that it doesn’t “seem to work”? I never said that. I’ve never dismissed the process outright. All I ever said is that I am skeptical of the claims that are made by the ionithermie treatment. It claims it is ridding the body of “toxins”. Okay, great. So, tell me, what are these “toxins” and how does it remove them? And tell me how does it actually remove cellulite? Those really are simple questions. Neither of you have answered them. All you have said is, “I liked it” and “Well, it did it temporarily so I had to go back.” Fine, great. Go for it. It’s your money.

I may be different than you both are in the way I approach things, but I’m unwilling to spend money on things I don’t understand. If I went to my primary care physician and he told me that I needed to have my tummy rubbed with a clay-based exfoliating agent to remove the toxins in it and that it only costs $1000.00, I’d still say, “Why?” And, just like I have done with both of you, I would ask for evidence that his suggested treatment would be effective. If he cannot provide that evidence, than I would not be willing to undergo the treatment.

Neither of you have explained the process nor explained how it works. If you can do so, I’m happy to consider it worthwhile. But you have not and will not provide the evidence I am asking for. You can dismiss me. You can say that I don’t have a clue because I’ve never done it. But that argument doesn’t work here. I don’t know what it’s like to break my leg but that doesn’t mean I’m going to do it just to experience it. I don’t have to experience everything in the world before determining if it is or is not a scam. I have not seen any evidence (and I repeat - YOU WILL NOT SHOW ME ANY EVIDENCE) suggesting Ionithermie does what it claims. Show me pictures. Show me a newspaper story. Show me anything. But instead you just say, “Well, it worked for me so I’m going to do it.” Fine, do it.

The whole point of my original blog post is that I was skeptical. That doesn’t mean you can’t do. Hell, it appears you both are going to do it anyway. Great! Have fun. But I’m not going to do it. Is that a problem?

P.S. I find this whole thing bizarre. I’m a 28 year-old vegetarian who exercises daily. I seldom use hand moisturizer or any type of lotion on my skin. I don’t smoke, drink alcohol, or even caffeinated beverages. By all accounts I’m not the person this treatment is being marketed to. And, what’s more, I’m arguing with what I presume are two middle-aged women. We have remarkably different life experiences. Do you really think you are going to convince me without substantial evidence that this is a worthwhile process? Come on. I obviously don’t need it. You’re welcome to post on my blog. I invite it. But just ranting and raving about how I don’t know what I’m talking about isn’t getting us anywhere. I went to the trouble of looking up information on Ionithermie. I would hope you could do the same.

17. Desiree Says:
October 19th, 2005 at 11:47 pm
Ryan, It amazes me that you are so unable to read what has been written over and over again. I have told you how and why ionithermie works and you cant seem to get it! SO hear I go again. ionithermie uses electricity to stimulate you body, and muscels. when you are bein treated there are electrodes attached to your body that has been covered with clay, the clay acts as a conductor to pulse the electricity to the specific area being treated. It is very similar to a treatment used by doctors all over the world to stregthen week or injured muscles. when the electricity is in pulsing through the body it makes the muscles contract. so it is like exercising, burning fat, and releasing toxins from your body. I am sorry that I cannot give you a specific list as to what toxins, but you are welcome to ask anyone in the medical field as to which toxins are released during exercise. Linda already explaned about toxins in a persons body, hopefuly you re-read that part, bein as you must have skiped it the first time. Ionithermie reduces the appearance of cellulite, which is fat by shrinking the fat cells by burning them off. there is also the the process of stimulating the limph system that carrys fat and toxins out of a persons body. If you were to read the past replies to your blog that I have written or go on the Dragonfly web site you can read all about the where and why, but do me a favor dont say we havent tried to answer your questions, just re-read the comments. Also I am a very fit young 30 year old, and I dont consider that to be middle aged yet. I only hope by taking good care of my body that someday I will get there. When you say you have gone through the troble to “look up info on ionithermie” I doubt you looked too hard, and reading only the part you want to, and not the whole thing doesnt realy count. No surprise at 28 you are still not finnished with school!

18. ginny Says:
October 22nd, 2005 at 4:16 pm
Wow! I too went on a cruz and thought I’d rather spend my $$ on the Spa” thing:everything. Pampered, I guess. Permanent, I doubt it. Costly? Souveniers are cheaper. I’ve enjoyed reading the discussion above, but have no definitive opinion, but it’s got me thinking.

19. ryan Says:
October 23rd, 2005 at 10:16 am
Hi Ginny,

I’m glad the discussion has at least made you think about things a bit. I doubt I’ll convince very many people the claims made by the Ionithermie practitioners are very, very questionable, but I’m trying.

Ryan

20. chris Says:
February 1st, 2006 at 8:59 pm
Ryan, came across your blog while looking for an explanation of these mythical “toxins” coursing through my veins. I laughed and laughed at this discussion. It would seem your opponents have neither any concept of the scientific method nor any appreciation for objectivity.

It looks as though this discussion is over, so I’ll keep this post brief. If I find any concrete proof of even one of these toxins I’ll post the link here.

21. Alfredo Says:
March 2nd, 2006 at 2:34 pm
Awesome! Thanks.

(Note: I originally posted this on my blog in October 2004. Over 27 people commented on it, including Laurence Britt. It is one of the more popular blog posts I’ve made over the years. In the interest of keeping my site cleaned up, I’m converting this post, along with all of the comments, into a page (as opposed to a blog post). People will still be able to read it, but will no longer be able to comment on it.)

So I received this email the other day sending me the following link:

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm

The email basically said I should go check out the link and see what I think about George Bush and his fascist regime. I went to the site and checked it out and I’ll admit it seems convincing. But, considering all of the political propaganda that’s getting passed around these days, I have to admit I was a bit skeptical. So, I looked into the alleged source for these points and, not surprisingly, there are problems.

As near as I can tell, the only reference to Dr. Lawrence Britt is in association with these 14 points. And the only reference to the book ‘Fascism Anyone?’ is also in reference to these 14 points. Neither Amazon.com (which really does have almost everything) nor any university library in Ohio has that specific book nor any works by ‘Dr. Lawrence Britt’ (anyone can search ohio’s library system).

As it turns out, Dr. Lawrence Britt is actually just ‘Lawrence Britt,’ a contributor to Free Inquiry, a magazine published by The Council for Secular Humanism. The article is freely available online. But as far as Mr. Britt being a political scientist, there is no reference to this in Free Inquiry. In fact, it says he is writing a novel to be released in 2004. While Lawrence Britt may have come up with these points, I’m hesitant to accept his analysis without the confirmation of actual political scientists. If his 14 points were published in a peer reviewed journal, I’d believe them. As they stand - propaganda!

For all you gung-ho democrats out there that want to claim Republicans are the only spin-meisters, think again. What was that old Biblical phrase, “cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.” (Luke 6:41-43)

27 Responses to “”Fascism Anyone?” - hoaxes go both ways?”

1. Bryan Betts Says:
November 4th, 2004 at 8:12 am
I don’t think it’s a hoax as such, but it’s certainly an interesting example of how easily you can get people to believe something (”political scientist Dr Lawrence Britt”) by making it sound authoritative and posting it on the Web.Like you, I smelt a rat when the document was forwarded to me, so I Googled first on “Lawrence Britt” and then on “lawrence britt -fascism”. Wake up and smell the propaganda, maybe? Even if it’s propaganda I happen to agree with:

2. Ryan Cragun Says:
November 4th, 2004 at 8:25 am
Excellent point: ‘Wake up and smell the propaganda, even though I want to believe it.’ I don’t particularly care for Bush: Well, if I’m going to be honest, I despise Bush; but if I’m going to claim to follow scientific principles based on empiricism, then I’d best stick to them whether they bolster my position or not.Thanks for the comment.

3. 4MLA1FN Says:
November 5th, 2004 at 11:27 am
i had suspicions also, which is how i ended up one this page. i did the same googles and searches on amazon.as has been said, i think some of these points are valid and their application to the current administration *may* be appropriate. but because of the seriousness of this charge, i would be more persuaded if the identification of these 14points *predated* the current administration. fascism has been around for a long time after all and some true poli-sci must have studied it.
finally, we know that fascism can be defeated by external forces, but has it ever been defeated from the *inside*; e.g., by a (minority) citizenry in opposition.

4. Ryan Says:
November 5th, 2004 at 1:07 pm
You make another good point. In reviewing the ‘14 points’ one gets the impression that they are catered very specifically to the Bush Administration rather than to fascism generally. If they have been published before 2000, this wouldn’t be an issue.Your second question is also a great point; I’m not sure fascism can be defeated from within. Then again, how many previous instances of fascism have existed and have they had the opportunity to be overthrown from within? I’m not sure there’s a good answer to this question and I’m certainly not qualified to answer it.

5. Carolyn Says:
November 12th, 2004 at 1:24 am
Puh-leze, people. :” ha unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. Ex-CUUUSE ME? Did anyone see the word “terrorists” there, as though terrorism were a political leaning, alongside liberalism and socialism? Or perhaps something you’re born into, like a religion or ethnicity? So.. I guess terrorists, while singled out as scapegoats in fascistic societies are welcome members of societies that are more tolerant? Without doing a whole lot of googling, I can say for sure that there is no “Dr.” Lawrence Britt, just as there is no book called “Fascism, Anyone?” This is just a poor piece of writing from a not particularly educated person, printed in a publication of absolutely no credibility or import.

6. Ed Says:
November 12th, 2004 at 10:36 am
I had suspicions also, which is how i ended up one this pageAye. My first thought was: “Who is the Lawrence Britt? And what is he a doctor of?”

Even if his assertions are all true, I’d be reluctant to accept them as a valid definition of fascism. I won’t go into that now though. But thanks for the further info.

7. mark Says:
November 13th, 2004 at 4:17 am
Ryan, I respect your initiative to research where the information came from. But the fact that we’re talking about politics and you’re quoting scriptures is very scary to me. This being one of the biggest problems with Bush and the Republicans. How long do we have to continue to ignore history and see how the combination of government and religion only leads to horrible things? Seriously, enough is enough.

8. Ryan Says:
November 13th, 2004 at 9:05 am
Just because it’s “scripture” doesn’t mean it can’t have a good message (link removed). In this case, the argument I am making using scripture is that liberals are often accusing conservatives of all sorts of conspiracies (e.g., there were accusations that ‘Rather-gate’ was a Karl Rove conspiracy). I felt the scripture - regardless of the fact that I don’t believe it to be an accurate account of the life of an alleged Jesus - to be quite fitting in this instance. If liberals are going to run around making accusations about conspiracies and calling conservatives on the other baseless accusations they make (e.g., that liberals have no morals), they should first be certain that they aren’t also making baseless accusations. That was the point of my quoting the scripture; it summarized everything I just said. Perhaps I needed to make that clearer.Also, in case you didn’t happen to explore the rest of my site and may have missed it, I maintain a page called secular homilies (link removed). it basically points out all of the problems with religion using weekly ’secular homilies’. My use of scripture here was simply to quote a well-known source that was making a good point. If I knew of a quote by Bertrand Russell or Karl Marx or William James that made the same point, I most certainly would have used that.

9. Binky Says:
January 3rd, 2005 at 11:15 pm
Actually, it’s “Laurence Britt”, not “Dr. Lawrence Britt” - both at amazon.com, and at http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm

10. Ryan Cragun Says:
January 4th, 2005 at 9:53 am
I did check on Mr. Laurence Britt at Amazon.com. It turns out he has published a novel called ‘June, 2004′. While I’m still hesitant to consider this a qualification for drawing up a list of characteristics of fascism, at least someone has found the guy:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1884962203/ref=pd_pym_ka/102-0771497-5956965

11. DA Says:
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:53 am
http://www.rochester-citynews.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A3136

12. Lizard Says:
February 3rd, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Heh heh,
I think if you check the transcripts of the Nuremburg trials out, with particular emphasis on Goering’s testimony, will pretty much bear out what Mr. Britt is trying to say. However, if this is distasteful to you you can always continue to listen to the strident mewling and puking of the likes of Limbaugh, Hennedy, and Boortz. In which case you all deserve what you get.

13. ryan Says:
February 3rd, 2006 at 8:06 pm
I think you’re missing the point, Lizard. I agree that Bush and his chronies are asses! I also think they are slowly working toward a capitalist oligarchy. I see similarities between the Bush Administration’s policies and fascism - but the point of my post and many of the comments was to investigate “Dr. Laurence Britt”. Turns out he’s not a doctor. He’s a fiction writer and retired business person. Certainly he has some good insights, but I like to know who is making such comparisons as that plays a role in how much credence I give to them.

14. Jack Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 1:57 am
Ryan, you asked for a quote from Bertrand Russell. Here’s one that might do.”The next step in a fascist government is the combination under an energetic leader of a number of men who possess more than the average share of leisure, brutality, and stupidity. The next step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent, by emotional excitement on the one hand and terrorism on the other.”

Bertrand Russell

I Googled Lawrence Britt and found precious little. HOWEVER, I don’t have to have an expert tell me that 2 plus 2 equals 4. I didn’t question my grammar school teacher and ask her to name a more reliable source than herself when she told me that little bit of information. What is fascinating (a good word considering) is that this guy Britt, whoever he is, has certainly done his homework. He just didn’t come up with those fab 14 on the box of some breakfast cereal. I lived in Cuba during the revolution, then in Franco’s Spain and have visited several other locations (Iran, Afganistan, Argentina and Chile) and I can tell you from what I have seen first hand that what this Britt gujy says is true. He certainly can’t be accused of being “a fascinated fool” like B. Russell mentioned in his quote abovve. Yes, I can be found at amazon.com. I’m a published writer and produced playwright and screenwriter-and an overseas combat vetran. So, let me tell you from where I stand at age 74 and where I am seeing my country headed, I think this Britt person is doing all of us a favor-if we;ll just accept that 2 and 2 equals 4. We’ve got to stop being such “fascinated fools”. I can safely say that in all fascist countries I’ve either lived in or visited, they all got that way via a populace of “fascinated fools”.

15. ryan Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 8:58 am
Hey Jack,Thank you for your comments and for the Bertrand Russell quote. I agree, it is much better than a pithy scriptural reference (especially when I don’t hold scripture up as anything special - actually, as even worthwhile). And, don’t get me wrong, I’ve always thought that Britt’s thoughts on fascism were on target. There are, however, two problems - and they both remain. First, he wrote that after the Bush Administration came into power. If he had written that before, it would be more compelling because then it could not be accused of being tailored toward the current administration and the connections would be all the more astonishing. Second, even though you tried to argue that credentials don’t mean anything, in reality they do. Your own example illustrates that. There is a reason you didn’t question your teacher - she was in a position of authority and had the credentials. I still think we should question authorities (that’s how science gets done), but it adds credibility to someone’s ideas if we know they are trained in that area.

Again, let me reiterate, I think Britt is on track. But then, I’m not trained as a political scientist and I’m not an expert. I look toward experts for that information. In my amateurish understanding of politics, I think Britt is right. But I want confirmation from authoritative sources.

16. Paul Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 12:46 pm
Ryan, all -I think you need to do a bit more digging on Britt. It’s “Laurence,” not “Lawrence.” Cached link on Google is:

excerpt:
The last place you might expect to find a progressive would be the executive offices at Allied Chemical, Mobil, or Xerox Corp. But, throughout a business career that spanned four decades, Laurence Britt never stopped challenging the status quo. And at the age of 64, he has become a leading voice on the left.

Britt, who held positions at all of the above companies, traces his interest in history back to his boyhood in suburban Philadelphia. His politics were clarified during his years studying business at Northwestern University in the early 1960s.
-
There’s a nice interview here, too.

Here are sources for Britt’s contentions:

http://www.doublestandards.org/fascism1.html

Sufficient confirmation?

17. ryan Says:
February 7th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
Hey Paul,Thanks for your input. The name thing has been mentioned in previous comments. I just didn’t see the utility in changing my original blog entry.

No sense reiterating my comments to Jack, so you’re welcome to look at those about my hesitations in just accepting anything Mr. (not Dr.) Britt has to say.

I am interested in why there is such interest in this blog entry as of the last few weeks though. Have people been getting emails containing the fascism list in their inboxes? If you look at the dates on the comments, the first half are from just after I made the original post at the end of 2004 - then nothing for a year. And now, suddenly, a bunch of people. Weird.

18. Paul Says:
February 12th, 2006 at 10:48 am Ryan-
Thanks- I scanned through the comments too quickly. Should take more of my own medicine.I agree that Britt makes all kinds of sense, and one really doesn’t have to have an advanced degree in political science to make the compelling case that I think he does. But the “Dr.” claim, or attribution, definitely detracts from the message. I note that the Rochestser City News article doesn’t seem to make any mention of a “Dr.” claim - my guess would be that someone made an assumption when reading the initial article (or the book), and that that error got propagated by people reproducing the “14 points” while taking the “Dr.” claim on faith. I’m surprised, though, that Britt appears unaware of the fairly widespread distribution of his “points,” and doesn’t correct the false attribution.

My thought on the renewed interest is that the Administration is moving more and more outrageously toward fascism, as the Abramoff scandal and the domestic spying revelations attest. Perhaps in reaction to this, people are recalling some 14 points of fascism thing that emerged a year or more back, looking it up again, and finding it even more relevant. A co-worker of mine reminded me of them, anyway, and that’s where my renewed interest came from.

Oh, and harking back to the beginning of the discussion-I don’t think it’s a problem that the 14 points came out after, rather than before, this Administrations’s seizure of power-it wasn’t nearly as relevant before, and wouldn’t as strongly prompt anyone, Britt included, to speculate and make comparisons.

19. Bob Says:
May 13th, 2006 at 7:14 pm
I have been a registered Republican for 26 years - all my voting life. I voted for George W. Bush twice. I have never voted for a Democrat, and don’t plan on it. I have never before voted for a third party, either. But I sure as hell will vote for whoever stands against the things the CIA, NSA, and FBI are doing these days.I recently encountered the Britt quote on Slashdot. I tracked it back to the original article by way of this page, and found the comments here informative. Scepticism about Lawrence Britt may be warranted - I have no idea who he is. But the article itself, which can be found here: http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=library&page=britt_23_2 include a reference section, which I intend to follow up on. I expect I will find many of Britt’s points among his references.

I am also familiar with life under totalitarian regimes. Members of my familiy that escaped those regimes always had a distrust of government. I can tell you that, compared with the tools the Stasi used in East Germany, the U.S. government has some very very dangerous powers. Restraining the power of government is more urgent now. There will likely be no bloodless revolution as there was in much of Eastern Europe if the U.S. goes full-blown authoritarian. The next time freedom ends, it probably ends forever.

20. ryan Says:
May 14th, 2006 at 9:21 am
Well, I’m glad to see that others are seeing the dangers in the moves the Bush Administration is making. Let’s hope it doesn’t get to that point, but if it does, you may be right:

21. Richard Gillette Says:
May 17th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
For those who are pondering the interest in Britt’s fourteen points of fascism I recommend the following reading:
http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/index.html
which links to interesting and troubling information regarding the ongoing, illegal domestic surveillance program.

22. George Says:
May 24th, 2006 at 10:25 pm
I heard many years ago (too many, details if requested) that the Reds and the US weremoving closer together. But if ya think that they’ll stop when they meet in the middle, you have another thought coming!Looks like we have passed that mid-point.

George

23. Doug Hill Says:
July 24th, 2006 at 5:47 pm
In his article, Britt never defines fascism, never expains what makes the regimes he cites fascist, never gives any examples of any of his “fourteen common threads”, making his article a real piece of pseudoscholarship. You can read my more detailed comments on my blog at:
http://orangecoyote.blogspot.com/2006/07/britt-on-fascism-in-free-inquiry.html .

24. Laurence Britt Says:
September 21st, 2006 at 9:41 pm Dear Ryan,
I’ve read this thread with interest. For your information I never made a claim that I was a “Dr.” Someone on the internet made that ASSUMPTION when they passed on the artice. I am a retired bsunessman with a life long interst in history and current events. I have a personal book collection on these subjects of over 3000 volumes. I’ve contributed chapters to three books, written another, and am working on a second. I’ve written aproximately 25 magazine and newespaper articles on political and econmic affairs. I spent about 200 hours researching the fascism article building on a lifetime interst in the subject. My novel, “June , 2004″ was written in 1997 and published in 1998. It was a fictional treatment of a future of fascism in America, which has turned out quite predictive of actual events since it was published.Regards, Larry Britt

25. ryan Says:
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:08 pm
Hi Larry,I’m glad you finally stopped by. Thanks for the clarifications. I have a couple of quick questions for you if you happen to catch my response:

Did you draw up the 14 points before the Bush Administration came into office in 2000?

Are they covered in your book, “June, 2004″? (I haven’t read the book so I don’t know?

Like I said above, I do think your points are on target - and yes, the Bush Administration’s push toward fewer civil liberties scares the hell out of me. I apologize if anything I said above was offensive. I hope it is clear that my intent was simply to question the authoritativeness of what was, when I first saw it at least, a questionable set of assertions about fascism. I appreciate your interest in this matter and wish you well in fighting the good fight. We need more people raising awareness about the problems with this administration and its scary policies.

Thanks again for posting. It’s kind of an ego boost to have the author finally find my site ;)

All the best,

Ryan

26. Laurence Britt Says:
September 22nd, 2006 at 8:33 pm Hi Ryan,
To answer your questions. I did the research for the fascism article during the run up to the invasion of Iraq, in late 2002 and early 2003. My novel “June, 2004″ was not a listing of characteristics of fascism but a fictional account of the near future that has been rather prophetic. Instaed of 9/11 there was an economic collapse, instead of invading Iraq, we invaded Cuba, where there was a continuing insurgency, instead of a Patriot Act there was a Preservation of American Values Act, the religious right had great power with a corrupt adminsitartion, the media was compromised and not doing their job, illegal surveilance was everywhere, elections were fixed, the courts packed. In other words, something like we are experiencing. One difference was that the fictional president was smart, charismatic and ruthless, not ingnorant and living in a bubble. Today’s reality is that those pulling the strings behind the president are the ruthless ones.

I’m currently working on a book project with the help of my New York literary agent. We have developed a 100 page book proposal that is being circulated with several publishers. The proposal is to create a fully documented book that will elaborate in detail the comparisons of presnt day trends in America to the historical fascist experience. We’ll see how it goes.Regards,

Larry Britt

27. ryan Says:
September 23rd, 2006 at 6:28 am
Cool. I may have to pick that book up - it sounds very interesting. I wish you the best with your new project and will keep my eyes open for it when it comes out.Thanks again for the clarifications.

Best,

Ryan