So, I got another email from my uncle (well, Debi got it and forwarded it to me). Here it is:
JOSE LEGAL VS. JOSE ILLEGAL
You have two families:
Jose Legal and Jose Illegal.
Both families have two parents, two children and live in California.
Jose Legal works in construction, has a social security number and makes $25.00 per hour with taxes deducted.
Jose Illegal also works in construction, has no social security number and gets paid $15.00 per hour cash under the table.
Ready? Now Pay Attention:
Jose Legal:
$25.00 per hour x 40 hours per week = $1,000 per week, or $52,000.00 per year.
Now take 30% away for State and Federal Tax:
Jose Legal now has $36,400.00.
Jose Illegal:
$15.00 per hour x 40 hours per week = $600 per week, or $31,200 per year.
Jose Illegal pays no State or Federal Taxes.
Jose Illegal now has $31,200.00.
The construction company that Jose Legal works for is small and during these hard economic times they can not afford to offer medical and dental coverage for their 3 employees. So Jose Legal pays medical and dental insurance on his own with limited coverage for his family at $600.00 per month or $7,200 per year.
Jose Legal now has $29,200.00
Jose Illegal has full medical and dental coverage through the state and local hospitals at a cost of $0.00 per year.
Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00.
Jose Legal makes too much money and is not eligible for food stamps or welfare.
Jose Legal pays $500 per month for food or $6,000.00 per year.
Jose Legal now has $23,200.00.
Jose Illegal has no documented income and is eligible for food stamps and welfare.
Jose Illegal still has $31,200.00 plus the benefits of the federal government.
Jose Legal pays rent of $1,200 per month or $14,400 per year.
Jose Legal now has $8,800.00.
Jose Illegal receives a $500 per month federal rent subsidy.
He shares a home with another illegal family so they pay nothing in rent.
He still has all his money.
Jose Legal pays $100 per month for auto liability insurance on their two older cars for a total of $1,200 per year.
He now has $7,600.00.
Jose Illegal doesn’t have a drivers license so he can’t get insurance and probably drives anyway.
He doesn’t need insurance cause he doesn’t have anything to lose.
He still has all his money.
If he gets pulled over he gets citation’s for no license and no insurance, but he doesn’t pay them because what are they going to do?
Take away his license?
HE DOESN’T HAVE ONE!!
Jose Legal has to make his $7,600.00 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline, clothing, out of pocket medical expenses, deductibles, co-pays, etc.
Jose Illegal has to make his $31,200 stretch to pay utilities, gasoline and what he sends out of the country to his family in the old country every month.
Jose Legal now works overtime on Saturdays or gets a part time job after work to help make ends meet.
Jose Illegal has his nights and weekends off to enjoy with his family.
Jose Legal and Jose Illegal’s children both attend the same school.
Jose Legal pays for his children’s lunches.
Jose Illegal’s children get a government sponsored lunch…. Free!
Jose Legal and Jose Illegal both enjoy the same police and fire services, but Jose Legal pay’s for them and Jose Illegal does not.
DO YOU GET IT NOW? WE ARE A COUNTRY FACING BANKRUPTCY AND THE ILLEGAL ALIEN PROBLEM IS A VERY LARGE PART OF THE PROBLEM! IF YOU ARE HERE LEGALLY AND ARE A PRODUCTIVE MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN SOCIETY, WE DON’T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH YOU!!
IF YOU VOTE FOR OR SUPPORT ANY POLITICIAN THAT SUPPORTS ILLEGAL ALIENS………YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM! IT IS WAY PAST TIME TO TAKE A STAND FOR AMERICA AND AMERICANS!
NO WONDER THESE PEOPLE ARE COMING HERE IN DROVES!! WHY ARE WE ALLOWING THIS!! IT HAS GOTTEN WORSE OVER THE PAST TWO DECADES AND NO ONE IN WASHINGTON (DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN) HAS DONE ANYTHING TO STOP IT!!!
THE NEW ARIZONA LAW STATES THAT IF YOU DO SOMETHING WRONG AND ARE PULLED OVER BY THE POLICE YOU MAY BE ASKED TO PROVE YOU ARE HERE LEGALLY. IF YOU ARE HERE LEGALLY YOU DON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO WORRY ABOUT! SHOW YOUR PAPERS!! WE AS AMERICAN’S CAN’T EVEN TRAVEL TO CANADA WITHOUT SHOWING OUR PAPERS SO WHY IS THIS SUCH A BIG DEAL! YOU CAN’T TRAVEL TO EUROPE OR ALMOST ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WITHOUT SHOWING WHO YOU ARE SO WHAT IS THE PROBLEM? RACIAL PROFILING YOU SAY? WELL IF ANY WHITE AMERICAN WAS TRAVELING THE CONTINENT OF AFRICA AND WAS ASKED TO SHOW THEIR PASSPORT PERIODICALLY BECAUSE OF THE WAY THEY LOOKED TO MAKE SURE YOU WERE THERE LEGALLY I WOULD THINK THAT WOULD BE EXPECTED.
IF YOU AGREE, PASS THIS ON. IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO SAY, “OH THEY ARE JUST LOOKING FOR A BETTER LIFE FOR THEIR FAMILIES – WHO CAN BLAME THEM?”, THEN HIT YOUR DELETE BUTTON AND DON’T COMPLAIN WHEN THE NEXT RANCHER IS MURDERED ON HIS OWN LAND. DON’T COMPLAIN WHEN AN ILLEGAL WITH A CRIMINAL PAST IN THIS COUNTRY BREAKS THE LAW AGAIN AND DOESN’T GET DEPORTED. DON’T COMPLAIN WHEN THE DRUG CARTELS KILL MORE INNOCENT AMERICANS. HOPEFULLY IT WON’T BE SOMEONE YOU KNOW OR LOVE. ARIZONA IS SICK OF IT AND THE REST OF THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE SICK OF IT TOO!
Here’s the response I sent everyone:
Hi Everyone,
I’m sure you don’t want to hear from me on this issue, but, once again, I feel an obligation as a professor who actually studies these kinds of things to offer some accurate information. If you’d like to continue holding inaccurate beliefs, feel free to delete now.
So, where to start given all of the inaccuracies in this email? First, the tax rate. Current tax code would put Jose Legal, making his hypothetical $52,000/year into a 15% federal tax bracket (per this website), which would be $7,800, not $15,600. And if he lives in the state of Florida, that’s it – no state income tax (Texas too). But if he lives in California, it’s 7.95%, but we’ll round that to 8%, which is $4,160. So, at the very most, Jose Legal will pay $11,960 in income tax (assuming he doesn’t itemize or get any deductions for his kids, which he is highly likely to do, substantially reducing his income tax burden). So, that changes the very first completely bogus hypothetical calculation. Jose Legal has $40,040.
As for health insurance, under the new health insurance bill, Jose Legal would qualify for a subsidy (he makes less than $88,000/year). So, at the very most he would pay 10% of his income on health insurance, but more likely would pay about 7% (per this website). So, Jose Legal gets another break here: rather than $7,200, he’d pay, at most, $3,640. He’s now at: $36,400. Jose Illegal, on the other hand, has no medical or dental benefits through the state because: He’s an illegal alien (seethis website). Jose Illegal and his family, if they need emergency care, will get it in an emergency room and will be billed for it. But, just like millions of other legal citizens in the U.S. who use the emergency room because they don’t have health insurance, Jose may not pay. Then the burden falls on local tax payers. Non-emergency care comes out of Jose Illegal’s pocket, and federal legislation has ruled out any subsidy for him or his kids – period. Jose Illegal doesn’t get free healthcare, except emergency health care, and that’s only if he doesn’t pay the bill. So, let’s assume Jose Illegal spends the average amount a family of four would on healthcare in the U.S. every year – about $15,000 (per this website). His income is now reduced to $16,200.
As for food stamps and welfare… Jose Illegal is NOT ELIGIBLE. See the Social Security Administration’s own website. Jose Legal’s kids, on the other hand, are eligible, and he may be too. So, you can completely reverse this calculation. New numbers: Jose Illegal has $10,200 left; Jose Legal has $36,400 (assuming the completely ridiculous assumption that food stamps are sufficient to actually feed people, which is not remotely accurate).
As for Section 8 or rental subsidy housing – illegals are, once again, NOT ELIGIBLE (see here, though emergency housing is available for all immigrants regardless of status, for 2 years). Jose Legal may qualify, but Jose Illegal doesn’t. Once again, we reverse the calculations: Jose Illegal has -$4,200 (that’s negative); Jose Legal has $36,400.
As for car insurance, this assumes illegals are more likely to break the law, which actually isn’t true. They are less likely to do so because they don’t want to be deported (see here). So, we can apply this calculation to both Jose Legal and Jose Illegal: Jose Illegal has -$5,400; Jose Illegal has $35,200.
Hmm… Turns out, illegal immigrants get screwed, while legal immigrants benefit from the social structure of the U.S. economy. Illegal Immigrants are NOT ELIGIBLE for: food stamps, welfare, retirement benefits, unemployment benefits, Section 8 housing subsidies, health insurance subsidies, etc. Illegal immigrants do one thing for the U.S. economy – make it lots of money. They are underpaid and exploited by those who hire them, translating into huge profits for the employers and meager incomes for the illegals. Many work in basically slave conditions, which have been highlighted in my local paper (see here).
I’m not sure who wrote the bigoted email below, but they clearly don’t have their facts straight and have a serious, ungrounded prejudice against illegal immigrants. Illegals help our economy, not hurt it. If you want to do something to help our economy, work toward a reduction in health care costs ($2.26 trillion in 2007) or military expenditures on the wars in Iraq ($734 billion) or Afghanistan ($284 billion) and a reduction in military spending ($685 billion in 2010). Or, better yet, how aboutcutting off all the tax breaks for major corporations ($92 billion in 2006)? Or what about getting rid of our subsidies to corporate farms in the U.S.? Any one of those would go much further toward helping the economic situation of the U.S. than attacking illegal immigrants!!!
Sorry to bother everyone with another email response, but I feel a moral obligation to provide accurate information.
Best,
Ryan
I should have noted, but didn’t, that the numbers used for illustration purposes in the original email (and copied in mine) are completely bogus. I stuck with them just to prove a point, but most illegals and legals don’t make that much money.
Update – 7/20/2010. Apparently people in Utah really don’t like illegals (see this news story for an example). I got people on the email list all upset over this. Here’s one of the more coherent responses and my response to his response:
Mr. Cragun,
The figures listed in the original email may not be correct. But then, neither are yours.
Health Insurance–what really happens:
Jose Illegal goes to the emergency room for everything! Since he does not pay– he and his family are provided health care and it is the most expensive type. Tax payers (Joe Legal) pay this cost. (19% of all Identity theft is insurance related? According to this web site: http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/microsites/idtheft/reference-desk/national-data.html) This is also one way that food stamps, welfare, rental subsidy housing are given to illegal immigrants.
You left out schooling which is provided free to their children, while they pay $0 taxes.
Concerning car insurance:
ILLEGAL immigrants don’t break the law more than those here legally?! First they are breaking the law by being here. The website you sent to support this idea talks about violent crime only (another issue). It doesn’t say anything about ID theft etc…By the way, how do you get car insurance without a valid drivers license??? You don’t! Driving without insurance is once again breaking the law. (Only recently have some states even started to allow illegals to drive.) They have accidents but don’t pay, which means those who have insurance pay for it through higher premiums.
To allow illegal immigrants to stay her and drain the system without paying is economically unsustainable. For you to say, ” Illegal immigrants help our economy, not hurt it” is absolutely incorrect. In fact, nothing could be further from the truth. I’m reminded of a quote I read recently ” you clearly don’t have your facts straight and have a serious, ungrounded prejudice in favor of illegal immigration”. Quoting liberal or inaccurate websites including your own liberal papers OPINION column, and Wikipedia is less than a genuine attempt to gather unbiased information. As a Assistant Professor that “studies such things”, I would expect a lot better. I can only assume you are aware that you have at least in part mislead those reading this by quoting inaccurate or completely biased sources.
Mexico lost Texas by uncontrolled immigration. We must for various reasons put a stop to illegal immigration. If you ” feel a moral obligation to provide accurate information”, then you first should acquire accurate information.
Bob
My response:
Hi Bob,
Thanks for responding.
Not surprisingly, I’m going to disagree with some of your arguments, but I’m also going to agree with others. First, the health care issue. Yes, Jose Illegal is going to go the emergency room and get treatment, the most expensive kind as you note, and is likely not going to pay. But so are about 40 million other CITIZENS of the U.S. who do not have health insurance. This is a health insurance and health care issue, not an immigration issue. Travel to Canada or the UK and have a heart attack and go to the emergency room. Are you going to pay anything for the care you get? Nope. Why? Because they provide universal health care coverage. If we did that (which, Obama’s plan kind of starts to do, and which would really mean higher taxes), this would basically be a non-issue. So, I’m agreeing that they abuse the healthcare system, but so do 40 million American citizens.
Your next point basically suggests that all illegals are identity thieves. I find that argument highly implausible. I won’t defend our government as being particularly competent, but I’m inclined to believe that our government doesn’t just give out free food, rent, etc. to anyone who claims to be a legal citizen (in fact, the Social Security Administration, which administers most of these benefits) does site visits and background checks for free rent and welfare specifically to rule out illegals. So, some may slip through, but I’m guessing most don’t. Ergo, I’m not buying your identity theft argument. Most identity theft is done by computer hackers and moderately well-educated drug addicts, not illegal aliens.
You got the schooling issue wrong. Almost all school districts in the U.S. are funded through real estate taxes, not income taxes. If illegals live somewhere and pay rent, they are indirectly paying real estate taxes (technically it is their landlord who is doing so). And since that is what funds schools, they are, in fact, paying taxes for schooling. Ergo, this argument falls flat.
You’re right that the website I sent about crime rates was violent crime. But that was just the first one I found and it was a direct response to the original email which claimed they were murdering farmers and ranchers. I doubt I can find evidence that they are less likely to commit identity theft, but that’s a different issue from the original argument.
As far as car insurance, here’s the irony here: My wife’s car was hit by an illegal without a license or insurance in 2000. We carried comprehensive coverage for uninsured motorists, so our insurance covered it. And, yes, I was pissed that she was illegal and was flagrantly disregarding the law (this was when we lived in Utah). But I also have a brother who lost his license for a year because a cop thought he was drunk (he had overdosed on anti-depressants), but he drove for a year without his license. Illegals aren’t the only ones who do this!!!! Also, until someone can put together actual numbers as to how much illegals driving in the US cost us every year in higher premiums, I’m not going to see this as a major issue.
Okay, so, do illegals help or hurt the economy? Well, Robert, do you help or hurt the economy? I’m assuming you work (looks like Hill Airforce Base from your email). How does that “help the economy”? Or does it hurt the economy? I’m guessing you’ll say you help the economy by working. And you’d be right. But you also help the economy by spending your money. Both factors play into this. We should also note that the economy is different from the financial situation of our government. Our economy (let’s use the GDP as an indicator of the economy) is helped by consumer spending and increased productivity. You’re doing both of these – spending money and working efficiently. Our government’s finances are better illustrated by our national debt. You only help this when you pay taxes, either sales, real estate, or income taxes as the government uses those revenues to pay its expenses. Now what about illegals? They are working, and very efficiently. They are also spending. So, technically, they are helping our economy. In fact, they may be propping up our economy because they often aren’t counted among workers, but their output is, making it look like productivity is higher than it really is. So, they absolutely help the economy. What about government finances? Well, they pay sales and real estate taxes (indirectly), so they are paying some tax revenue. They may skip out on income taxes, which is a problem, but they do pay two types of taxes. So, illegals help the economy, but may be a slight drain on government expenditures. But that also assumes that their employers don’t pay taxes on the profit generated from their work. If their employers pay taxes on the profits, then they are also indirectly paying income tax. Ergo, I doubt they are actually draining government coffers. But, I invite you to find legitimate evidence that they are. If I’m wrong on this point, I’d like to know it.
In short, illegals are really not a major problem in the U.S. I don’t know why people are so annoyed by them. It seems like prejudice and bigotry to me. Can you honestly point out how illegals are hurting you? I can point out how they hurt my finances (we had to pay the deductible on the car repairs – $500; my wife was fine, by the way), but I still don’t hold that against all illegals. So, why the outrage against them? I don’t get it.
Best,
Ryan
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